Stuck Gravel

[BeansMom]

Poor Adolph - as if losing Trigger was not enough, he now has a piece of gravel stuck deep in his throat. He has done this before (he actually "extended his top lip" permanently before he dislodged that one. This piece has been in there since yesterday morning. He's going crazy trying to dislodge it (darting from side to side in the tank). He darts around until he exhausts himself. The good news is it doesn't appear to be keeping him from eating, and he CONTINUES to pick up more gravel while feeding (maybe he thinks more will help dislodge the piece that's stuck). I consulted my goldfish book, and it said to net him, hold him head down, pinch the outer corners of his mouth to open it, and stroke down on his throat to help dislodge it. It's almost like, "you're kidding right?". Adolph is quite large and it would take a few hands to perform this manuever. Any other ideas?

[amanichen]

Same procedure as above, except lay him flat, and use tweezers. It's going to be dificult to restrain a large goldfish by yourself, and that's something you just can't get away from.

[BeansMom]

Wow - thanks for being right there on top of this. I will try to get another pair of hands to help me. My fear is injuring him trying to perform this. I'm going to hope he got it out himself when I get home. If not, I'll let you know how it goes.

[amanichen]

It would be best to lay the fish in a shallow pan of water. Wash your hands with something such as rubbing alcohol beforehand.

The trick to handling fish is knowing where and where not to restrain one.

Basically, don't hold the fish by the tail -- it'll just slip out of your fingers. One person will have to hold it with a hand right behind the head, and the other hand slightly farther down the body. Careful not to apply pressure to the operculum (gill cover.)

If done properly, this willl restrain the fish regardless of any tail flapping it does. Hold him firmly, but don't force him to be rigid.

(Make sure he's in the normal swimming position -- i.e. his tail isn't slapping the pan that he's in.)

Afterwards you might want to put melafix or bettamax into the tank. Watch him for signs of bacterial or fungal problems since there will be some damage to his mucus coat.

There's always a risk of infection, but most fish don't ever manage to dislodge the gravel by themselves -- that makes the manual procedure necessary.

And oh yeah, good lighting would be useful for this -- but mind the fish's vision.

[BeansMom]

Well, with your great instructions, we managed to extract the gravel in Adolph's throat last night. It took two of us. I'm praying this doesn't happen again - it really stressed me out as much as him. So, I expected to see a much improved fish. But...I kept on hearing him bang against the thermometer in the tank after lights out last night. Previously not seen (I think the dark room with only the tank light on helped this discovery), ICH! Explains his continued flashing. I medicated with CopperSafe last night about midnight. Not much difference today. According to Mardel's very thorough packaging, this med supposedly stays active in the tank for 30 days. I have chosen to treat the entire tank since ICH is so easily transmitted. My questions are: since ICH will leave tiny wounds when they fall off, should I treat concurrently with antibiotics? Does anyone have experience with Coppersafe who can tell me what I should look for in terms of time in the tank for relief of symptoms?

[amanichen]

Treating with an antibiotic would be a good idea.

Under "Aquarium FAQs" there's an ich article. Basically, it should give you what you need to know, and if not I'll answer any other questions you have.

s94779296.onlinehome.us/website/Fish/

[BeansMom]

I think I understand that stress may have had a part in the ICH being able to get a hold here. Perhaps all my deep gravel vacs have helped, and perhaps the stuck gravel gavel it an inroad. I do remember reading that this parasite lives in your tank no matter how healthy you keep it - just a natural part of the environment. The questions I have remaining, then, are: Did I read the Coppersafe correctly (only one treatment for an entire 30 day cycle)? A good thing I'm treating the whole tank (the Shubunkin girls, too, or should I isolate)? Which antibiotic would be the best suited (Myracyn, Triple Sulfa, Kanacyn)? I did notice all three of them hovering around the top of the tank, so will the airstone and bio filter provide enough oxygen during this time (I can lower the water level and get alot more action from my filter if needed)?, and finally, my carbon is about 7 days old, as a result, I left it in place...ok?

[amanichen]

I do remember reading that this parasite lives in your tank no matter how healthy you keep it - just a natural part of the environment.

Actually, that's not true. Be cautious if you read material from that source in the future.

It is true that fungi, and bacteria are always present in a fish tank (and things like excess organic matter, too much food, and poor water quality help their populations increase.) Bacteria and fungi are opportunistic -- that is they can consume about any organic matter using digestive chemicals. When your fish are healthy, their immune systems can defend against the bacteria and fungi, which normally snack on uneaten food, and fish dexrement. If your fish become vulnerable, they get bacterial sores, fungal lesions, and fin rot, because the bacteria and fungi don't care what they eat.

However, ich, being a parasite, needs a HOST. If there's no ich for 14 days, then your fish are home free. Ich simply can't survive eating fish crap for dinner -- it needs a living host.

It's VERY easy to introduce ich, and it most likely came in via the water with your shubunkins. Even if you're careful about not mixing the water, the protazoans can still make their way in. Your fish might not show symptoms for a few days after the actual parasites come in.

And people who have reoccurring ich infestations either 1. don't treat it properly or 2. keep reinfecting their tank from somewhere.

The questions I have remaining, then, are: Did I read the Coppersafe correctly (only one treatment for an entire 30 day cycle)?

Yep. Chelated copper stays in solution for a LONG time, although carbon will remove some of it.

A good thing I'm treating the whole tank (the Shubunkin girls, too, or should I isolate)?

Treat the whole tank, don't bother isolating any of the fish.

Which antibiotic would be the best suited (Myracyn, Triple Sulfa, Kanacyn)? I did notice all three of them hovering around the top of the tank, so will the airstone and bio filter provide enough oxygen during this time (I can lower the water level and get alot more action from my filter if needed)?,

Yes, you'll want to increase aeration. Be careful not to supersaturate the water with air, but gas exchange happens best when the surface of the water is being broken by a falling water stream.

You could follow up with a course of triple sulfa if you wanted to.

and finally, my carbon is about 7 days old, as a result, I left it in place...ok?

It should be fine. I don't think it'll remove too much of the copper.

[BeansMom]

You are TOO GOOD, my freind. Thanks for all the help - yet again!

[amanichen]

yeah ;D

[BeansMom]

It ocurred to me last night as I was vacuuming out some water, that I might be actually removing some of the parasites in the process (yah!). Anyway, I took out 4 gallons, but replaced only 2.5 (each gallon treated with 1/4 teaspoon of Coppersafe - the dose is 1 teaspoon per 4 gallons). This left about an inch and a half lowered level in the tank, so the disruption of the water flow from the filter was quite nicely increased. Both Adolph, and now Shilo, are darting and scraping themselves on the gravel in an effort to dislodge these ugly little buggers. My question today is regarding the antibiotic addition. Mardel's literature indicates their "Trisulfa" as compatable with the Coppersafe. But...I have Aquarium Pharmacuetical's "Triple Sulfa" caps. Do you see any reason this should not be compatable? I know it is iffy to combine different manufacturers meds.

[amanichen]

It should be fine =)

Chelated copper sulfate is relatively inert when it comes to using antibiotics with it.

[BeansMom]

Okay...I'm probably being a bit hyper here, but how long should the Coppersafe take to show some improvement? Both the girls are infected (hiding out in their hollow log), and everybody is doing body slams into the gravel. It's only been since Monday, but I don't see any less ICH on Adolph (and may actually be seeing more). I have no experience with this medication.

[amanichen]

As stated in my article, no medication actually kills the ich parasites embedded in the fish on the fish. They can only be killed during the free swimming stage. That is, medications prevent newly hatched protozoans from attaching to your fish, but does nothing for the ones on the fish, and nothing to the cysts which sit in the substrate.

And again, treat for 14 days, which is the total life cycle of the parasite. You won't notice a dramatic improvement in two days of treating.

Raising the temperature can speed the life cycle, but it should be done with caution given the situation.

[BeansMom]

Thanks...I will relax a bit. Hard to watch them be so miserable. I chose the Coppersafe since it did not require a temp change (as you said, I didn't think it would be a good idea to bring my goldfish up to 85 degrees). The Rid-Ich I have worked very well on both my Betta rescues but raising their temp wasn't a problem.