|
|
Post by marcusbacus on Nov 27, 2004 0:12:17 GMT -5
I was reading some info about fishless cycling in some Usenet groups (each post has a different "ultimate" way to do it!) and basically it says that you should add ammonia in the start of the cycle enough for the test to measure 5 ppm. But is this the total ammonia read by common tests or just pure NH3, as it's what should be added to kick off the cycle?
|
|
|
|
Post by amanichen on Nov 27, 2004 7:14:09 GMT -5
Good question. Seeing as how most people have total ammonia test kits, I'd be inclined to say it's total ammonia.
After all, as ammonia is broken down, the ammonium hydroxide tends to turn back into ammonia and water, which provides an additional source of food for the bacteria. The ammonia level is never truly 5.0ppm...probably more like 2 to 3 ppm with a steady reserve of ammonium that's ready to turn back into ammonia.
The goal is to make the largest possible bacterial colony without altering water conditions so much that the bacteria die.
At the end of the fishless cycle, it's better to add a fish bio load that was smaller than the one you simulated using the ammonia, and experience some die-off. The opposite case is that you have a fish bio load that's larger than the simulated one, and the bacterial colony either ends up going through a "catch up" period, or you just can't fully load the tank. Of course we have no way of effectively judging bio load, and no way of effectively telling how many bacteria are there, and how efficient they are, but you can get a rough idea by how quickly the ammonia level drops.
A qualitative comparison is about all I can give you =)
It's like salt: we know that in a range of reasonable concentrations, salt is useful for for temporary problems in fish. There's no ideal level that works for all fish, but everybody will give you a specific dose to use, and those doses will vary widely according to who you ask.
|
|
|
|
Post by marcusbacus on Nov 27, 2004 9:41:17 GMT -5
At the end of the fishless cycle, it's better to add a fish bio load that was smaller than the one you simulated using the ammonia, and experience some die-off. In some posts there are some people saying that they added some fishes right before the cycle was fully completed, so this difference would be minimized and there wouldnt be no subtle differences in available ammounts of waste and available ammonia and the colonies wouldn't suffer. What is interesting are the different methods used. Some people add pure ammonia (which seems to be the best if you are in a hurry - they say that the tank is cycled in 5 days the most!), some add fish waste, some add fishes in several different intervals during the cycle (not exactly at first or else it wouldnt be a fishless cycle  ) and some reported that the same technique and cycle times were drastically changed if they used too many plants or not, being java moss the fastest. But also, they aren't sure if the java moss is actually helping the cycle or if it just consuming the ammonia before the bacteria can do that, so there is no ammonia as if it was cycled but then there are no bacteria either. |
|
|
|
Post by marcusbacus on Nov 27, 2004 11:04:46 GMT -5
I just bought some ammonia, 10% solution (a 60ml bottle) and also got this Laborett kit. I'm ready for cycling, I guess. I only have to know what is best, if I can cycle the tank bare or if I have to place everything first like gravel and plants (which I don't have yet).
I think that adding stuff later will be a mess, unless if added right before the final water change before adding fish but then a shock might happen again and the levels can get out of control in a sudden again.
I was thinking of filling the tank to the half so I could have room to add the plants and decoration and gravel as I get them and start the cycle then fill it fully later in the final change, but I think this is a bit dumb - not only the adding of extras and extra water can break the process but also the filter won't work with that water level...
|
|
|
|
Post by amanichen on Nov 27, 2004 14:57:02 GMT -5
I can say that pure ammonia is the best cycler: it's direct food for the nitrifying bacteria. Fish waste, food, and other more complicated organic matter is food for opportunistic fungi and bacteria, and those are the same ones that cause fish diseases.
Oddly enough, they often produce ammonia as a byproduct, and it's better (and I'd personally feel safer) using pure ammonia.
As for plants, they are actually incorporated into the nitrogen cycle. They can process nitrate (as well as nitrite and ammonia) and turn it back into nitrogen and oxygen.) They ARE part of the cycle, it's just the cycle will be dependent on both plants and bacteria in order to happen. Either one works, but plants have additional benefits such as nitrate reduction, phosphate reduction, and the processing of carbon dioxide in the water.
However, most plants won't withstand an accelerated establishment of the nitrogen cycle, and unless you're using java moss, I'd delay adding them until the pH becomes stable.
|
|
|
|
Post by marcusbacus on Nov 27, 2004 16:16:16 GMT -5
I have some spare Elodea (Egeria densa) which I'm planning to add just during the cycle - they're cheap and resistant. I still have no idea about which plants I'll be using, neither which kind of decoration or substrate, I just want to avoid unnecessary work in the future (yes, I'm lazy  ). I've just finished measuring Kh and Gh in the water I'll be using (scored 3 on both), and it's the first time I did this measurement - water has been resting for a few days (3) and has Aquasafe - so I can have a better idea about what will be possible to do and what species would fit better, and I also did some more accurate ammonia and pH tests using the Tetra kit and the ammonia samples. A single drop of the ammonia in the test tube was enough to make it go over the scale (scored 0 before), so it seems this will work fine. pH was 7.5, which was expected and seems that it's easy to be fixed as my Kh is low. |
|
|
|
Post by marcusbacus on Dec 5, 2004 13:18:53 GMT -5
The cycle has started, and I added a lot of plants:
2 Alternanthera reineckii "rosaefolia"
Bacopa australis (2 I think)
1 Ceratopteris cornuta
1 Echinodorus quadricostatus - couldn't identify this one so far...
4 Glossostigma elatinoides (tiny and fragile!)
2 Hygrophila corymbosa (with small blue flowers!)
1 Hygrophila polysperma (Rosanervig, pretty one)
2 Lindernia rotundifolia (or is it 1?)
1 Microsorium pteropus ($$!)
2 Riccia fluitans (2 small carpets of 10x10cm)
3 Vallisneria sp. (I disliked this a lot - they said it was a smaller kind)
It doesn't look as crowded as it seems, but I think it's not necessary to add the Egeria densa (Elodea) right now.
I think I wouldn't be able to stabilize the pH first before adding plants because it would be a mess to set it up with plants when full, and because I have no idea what would happen to the pH during a cycle. I measured it a day after everything was set and it's slightly higher than I wanted, it's 8. But it's sort of expected, as I didn't use filtered water (which has a lower pH here) and this value is the usual value for my tap water. If it goes like in the betta tanks, it might reduce in a week, so I am avoiding to use any pH lowering products.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jenova on Dec 5, 2004 15:28:31 GMT -5
I think I wouldn't be able to stabilize the pH first before adding plants because it would be a mess to set it up with plants when full, and because I have no idea what would happen to the pH during a cycle. I measured it a day after everything was set and it's slightly higher than I wanted, it's 8. But it's sort of expected, as I didn't use filtered water (which has a lower pH here) and this value is the usual value for my tap water. If it goes like in the betta tanks, it might reduce in a week, so I am avoiding to use any pH lowering products. Sounds like a cool tank  I wouldn't try to mess with the Ph now. It will always be higher when there is ammonia in the tank because ammonia is a base. Wait until the tank is fully cycled before you decide. Unless it's way over the top, I wouldn't want to add any pH regulators. They often do more harm than good. |
|
|
|
Post by marcusbacus on Dec 5, 2004 15:34:59 GMT -5
Sounds like a cool tank not yet - how can a fish tank look cool... without fish?!  I'm not sure about the "always" bit but this is what I thought, as it has always lowered after a few days in the betta tanks. |
|
) and some reported that the same technique and cycle times were drastically changed if they used too many plants or not, being java moss the fastest. But also, they aren't sure if the java moss is actually helping the cycle or if it just consuming the ammonia before the bacteria can do that, so there is no ammonia as if it was cycled but then there are no bacteria either.
).
