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Post by BeansMom on Sept 3, 2004 12:12:18 GMT -5
the conversion chart for converting ammonia is wonderful. I'm sure we can all use this (Amanichen sent on my post of the other day). So, I go home with it and set to work. First, I should say that when I originally set up Smarty's tank 6 weeks ago, I used my tap water. When I got the 5-in-1 test, the parameters seemed horrible: Very Hard, Very High PH, Very High Alkalinity. So, over the course of 10 days, I converted his tank water to spring water. I used this same test on the water I purchased, and everything was in the ideal range. So, imagine my surprise when I measured his tank water last night, and found it all in same ranges as my tap water! So, I pose question #1: what in my tank can take my PH up to 8.0, my alkalinity to 240, my hardness to 250?? (I think I read somewhere that substate can increase the alkalinity, but gosh!). So, I measure my ammonia, it comes back a 3.0 (which it always measures, even after water changes and new carbon, and Ammolok. Using the wonderful chart, I can now determine my NH3 to be .173...awful  So, I do another 25% water change, add Ammolok again, he is fasted for the day, and measure this morning. Absolsutely NO change. Just, as aside, my Nitrite is ZERO, and my Nitrates are 20 (which, correct if I'm wrong), leads me to believe my bacteria are doing their job. Question #2: How can I get this level down? I am doing 25% water changes every other day on his 2.5 gal tank, a good gravel vac once a week, he is fasted 1 day a week, and he is not being overfed according to what I've read. He is exhibiting no signs of stress and is making a remarkable recovery from his fin/body rot. I know gill damage is probable in this range ( |
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Post by amanichen on Sept 4, 2004 23:53:10 GMT -5
Hrm...
So the tank now has spring water and is still showing a high ammonia concentration?
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Post by BeansMom on Sept 7, 2004 10:27:13 GMT -5
Yes - .17 per calculations. I did another gravel vac yesterday (25%) and removed the "ammonia stopper" gravel. I will see this afternoon if it still is high. Again, he continues to improve...fins nearly normal now. Shouldn't there be some indication of stress?
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Post by Rachel on Sept 7, 2004 20:47:40 GMT -5
Hmm. I replied to this thread earlier but I'm not sure what happened to it.  How are things looking at this point? Even if there is ammonia present in the water your betta may not show symptoms of ammonia poisoning, especially if the levels are low. They can withstand some ammonia without ill affects. After re-reading I guess I'm a bit confused. I would think the spring water pH would be around neutral, but it is quickly being raised to 8.0 and you're still getting an ammonia reading? I'm not sure how you could get the exact same outcome of readings with the spring water as you did tap. |
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Post by BeansMom on Sept 8, 2004 10:55:35 GMT -5
Hi Rachel...I'm confused, too. I have repeatedly tested the spring water and it comes back ideal each time. I started thinking there was something in my tank causing the PH to go up, but I don't know what. I have 3# of gravel, to which I added this gravel like material that was supposed to absorb ammonia. I have 2 silk Betta plants, a small aqaurium decoration (a castle for the king), and a hidey hole that is a tall shot glass (which he adores). I removed the ammonia gravel day before yesterday. I tested his water this morning: 8.00 PH, very hard, very alkaline. I used the chart Amanichen gave me to calculate the ammonia. Based on my temp (79degrees), and my PH, the ammonia still comes back .17. I'm wondering if I lowering the PH will help the ammonia level.
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Post by amanichen on Sept 8, 2004 11:27:50 GMT -5
The high pH is because of the elevated ammonia level -- ammonia mixed with water creates ammonium hydroxide. The Hydroxide is responsible for the high pH.
You're using the test kit that measures total ammonia, correct?
BTW, do you use salt in this water?
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Post by BeansMom on Sept 8, 2004 15:00:21 GMT -5
We are having such server trouble - I'm sorry if this gets posted twice.. No salt in the water (I read this raises the alkalinity). I am using the total ammonia kit (my kit has been backordered . If I'm using the great chart you sent correctly, this is my calculation: TAN 3.0, PH 8, Temp 79 degrees = .0574 factor or .17 nh3. I have been scared off using a PH Minus chemical since I've read alot of negativity on them. I will, of course, if you think it will help. |
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Post by amanichen on Sept 8, 2004 17:10:21 GMT -5
We are having such server trouble - I'm sorry if this gets posted twice.. No salt in the water (I read this raises the alkalinity). I am using the total ammonia kit (my kit has been backordered . If I'm using the great chart you sent correctly, this is my calculation: TAN 3.0, PH 8, Temp 79 degrees = .0574 factor or .17 nh3. Eureka! I think I've figured it out. Since the total ammonia test finds any ammonia, it's also finding any molecules that have been "locked up" by the Ammo-Lock. The charts I gave you, unfortunately do not account for things like Ammo-Lock being present in the water. They're based off of water that has as few things as are needed to complete the experiment which gives those numbers. So it WOULD be .17 if you didn't have ammo lock in there, but the actual free ammonia level might be lower than .17 ppm. "salt" in general may or may not affect alkalinity. A salt is defined as any metallic ion, combined with a nonmetallic ion. Sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, magnesium sulfate are all technically salts. Most people just use "Salt" to refer to sodium chloride, because it's one of the most common chemicals we come into contact with on a daily basis. Sodium chloride does not affect the alkalinity, and neither does magnesium sulfate. Calcium carbonate does, because alkalinity is a measurement of the carbonate level in water. I hope that clears it up =) pH adjusting chemicals get a bad "reputation" because people don't know how to use them. It's as simple as that. That's not to say that the people who try to use them are stupid or anything like that, but they just don't fully understand the chemistry behind it. It's like giving a sixteen year old a 1000 horsepower drag-racing car, and telling them all they have to do to drive it is press the gas, press the brakes, and steer the wheel. It looks simple, but it's really much more complicated than that. The instructions on the pH adjustment products basically come down to "add two drops for every X drop in pH." Not only is that not true in every case, it's nowhere enough information to allow a person to make a smart decision on how to use it. You have to look at other things like the presence of ammonia in the water, carbon dioxide, and the carbonate level (alkalinity.) The second problem comes in that people are misled into thinking they can add chemicals to the water while the fish are in it. Sometimes you can get away with it, and other times directly introducing chemicals makes any chemical canges too large, and too quickly. Water changes are the best way to handle chemical adjustments, rather than directly dumping chemicals into the tank. pH changes to a tank should be done by adding water of the target pH. Prepare your water beforehand, and make sure it's been dechlorinated, and the pH and carbonate level are where they need to be. As you do water changes (over days/weeks/months depending on how large of a change you need) the pH of the tank will slowly go towards your target pH. Hopefully this all makes sense to you, and you're not overwhelmed at this point. |
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Post by BeansMom on Sept 8, 2004 18:07:10 GMT -5
Whoopie! I HAD a feeling the Ammolok and the ammonia gravel might be a factor (which is why I removed the gravel the other day). I just could not imagine his ammonia level being bad with all the water changes I give him. However, I am a total novice. As a novice, the PH chemicals really are SCARY, since they warn of burns, and oxygen deprevation. I gravel vacuumed Monday (25% change), did a 25% change last night, so I bet I will begin to see better test results. Thanks for all the good info...I feel much better now about his envirnoment.
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Post by BlueBetta on Sept 11, 2004 9:30:07 GMT -5
If your tank is only 2.5 gallons and it doesn't have a powered filter. (It is a betta only tank right?) Then I wouldn't even worry about doing Partial water changes and change the whole water every week or two.
How did you add your spring water ?
If you only add it at 25% water changes then the ph Will probably stay the same.
If your bio filter is doing its job then there should be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and some nitrate. Maybe you do not have any ammonia and the ammonia chemicals are giving a false reading.
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So, I do another 25% water change, add Ammolok again, he is fasted for the day, and measure this morning. Absolsutely NO change. Just, as aside, my Nitrite is ZERO, and my Nitrates are 20 (which, correct if I'm wrong), leads me to believe my bacteria are doing their job. Question #2: How can I get this level down? I am doing 25% water changes every other day on his 2.5 gal tank, a good gravel vac once a week, he is fasted 1 day a week, and he is not being overfed according to what I've read. He is exhibiting no signs of stress and is making a remarkable recovery from his fin/body rot. I know gill damage is probable in this range 
