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Dropsy
Sept 14, 2004 17:09:35 GMT -5
Post by BeansMom on Sept 14, 2004 17:09:35 GMT -5
Much to my complete dismay, one of my nine year old goldfish (rescued feeder fish) is, I believe, dying of dropsy. Four days ago, he became unbelievably bloated in his belly area, and now it seems, even his eye sockets. I started treating the entire tank (he has a companion) with M1 and M2 immediately. I'm treating the tank because, while I've read some conflicting opinions, most experts say you should treat drospy as highly contagious. Since Trigger is 10 1/2 inches long, I could not isolate him anyway, but it seems good prevention to also treat his companion, Adolph. I'm afraid it may be hopeless, but I'm still trying to help him. Tonight is the last night of this medication. If he survives, does anyone have a suggestion on what else might help. I am in tears
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Dropsy
Sept 14, 2004 19:46:08 GMT -5
Post by amanichen on Sept 14, 2004 19:46:08 GMT -5
Dropsy may or may not be contagious.
Generally, what happens is one of the following:
1. fish receive live food, get internal infections, and dropsy (which is a symptom) shows up as a result of internal organ swelling (usually kidney or liver.)
2. fish are in chronically poor water quality, and they are equally stressed out. Bacteria which are normally held in check overwhelm the fish
It's easy to see lots of fish affected at once, and call it contagious, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily contagious. (As it is, there are lots of harmful microbes which are alwasy present in an aquarium -- and they're held in check by water changes, gravel vacuums, and the fish's immune systems.)
The only time it's really "contagious" is when a fish eats a dead comrade, and gets exposed to the bacteria that way. In the other cases, such as food, if all the fihs receive the same food, they all have the potential to get sick from it.
As for treating your goldfish, magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) may help reduce swelling. Don't use sodium chloride. As for medications -- medicated foods are the best for internal problems. That doesn't mean you should stop the MAracyn 2, and you might even be able to soak his food in a diluted solution of it.
Dropsy kills because of organ damage. Swelling means organ swelling, which means organ damage. If you can alleviate the swelling the fish will hold on, but the antibiotics are necessary to kill bacteria. If the swelling has gone on for too long, no amoutn of antibiotics will save the fish, and it eventually dies of organ failure.
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Dropsy
Sept 15, 2004 10:24:09 GMT -5
Post by BeansMom on Sept 15, 2004 10:24:09 GMT -5
Thanks Amanchen...I think I'm losing him. Day 5 and no difference. He is not eating, so I could not get medicated food down him. This fish has had swim bladder and constipation problems since I resued him 9 years ago. Maybe that predisposed him to this. I know the water quality is good, but I did make a small change to his diet (another type of Goldfish flake). I hope he's not in pain...
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Dropsy
Sept 16, 2004 16:04:40 GMT -5
Post by BeansMom on Sept 16, 2004 16:04:40 GMT -5
Last night I gave my tank the last dose I had of M1 and M2. Before doing it, I removed 20% of the water. I have continued normal filtration since I began this medication. My filter is an Aquaclear 300 (a bio sponge and carbon pack type). This, being a Goldfish tank of 20 gallons, requires a filter of that size, I believe, since goldfish produce so much more waste than other fish. The carbon pack is two weeks old, so I did not remove it. Unfortunately, Trigger shows no signs of improvement. He is not, however, any worse. He does not appear to be laboring in his breathing, but he has not eaten for 6 days now. He maintains a spot on the bottom of the tank next to the airstone. My local pet stores (all 3!) are out of M2. No one will have any until Tuesday. I CANNOT give up on my fish, even though I know that $30 of meds so far have meant diddly. I was prepared to buy more Now what do I do? The epsom salt did not help, I'm afraid. I have sulfa and Tetracyline on hand. Will either help? If so, how much of the water should I replace before adding either to the M1/M2 mix? If I do lose him, what should I do in terms of my tank to insure the health of his companion (Adolph)? Adolph is considerably smaller than Trigger (about six inches long), so I could put him very temporarily in a 1-gal tank to do a tear-down on the 20-gal if needed. (Poor guy is getting his dose of meds, too). Sorry for so many questions...
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Dropsy
Sept 16, 2004 17:54:02 GMT -5
Post by amanichen on Sept 16, 2004 17:54:02 GMT -5
The filter sounds fine -- the larger flow rate won't hurt at all.
So the salt didn't help? How did you go about using it?
I dont think that tetracycline or sulfur based drugs would help...that is unless you can get them inside the fish. That either means ingested, or injected. Maracyn 2 is the only antibiotic you've named which is absorbed from the water in any significant amount. So keep up on the M2. I'm tempted to tell you to switch find a source of nitrofurazone, and switch to that, but that's just me =)
He hasn't gotten worse, and if he's breathing comfortably then that's a good thing. So keep an eye on him, keep up on the meds, and we'll see about the salt when you reply.
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Dropsy
Sept 16, 2004 18:16:05 GMT -5
Post by Rachel on Sept 16, 2004 18:16:05 GMT -5
Hang in there Beansmom. You're doing the best that you can and I'm sure that Trigger appreciates his rescue and all of the many years of care. Dropsy is a difficult disease to deal with I'm afraid and it can be upsetting to try to treat at times. Best of luck to him.
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Dropsy
Sept 16, 2004 18:53:09 GMT -5
Post by BeansMom on Sept 16, 2004 18:53:09 GMT -5
Thank you Rachel - losing any of my babies is hard for me to take. Amanichen - I have called within a 40 mile radius of my house. No one has anymore M2 (who knows why), BUT I did find my tropical fish store has Kanacyn. I will go there directly after work and get it. She suggested a 25% water change again tonight before adding the Kanacyn to remove some of the M1 and M2. Is all this medicating endangering my other fish - or is my rationalization on the money - he needs some preventative care since he's housed with Trigger? To answer your question, I added 1/4 teaspoon for each five gallons (or a total of 1 teaspoon for the tank). Added it last night, but saw no improvement in the swelling this morning.
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Dropsy
Sept 16, 2004 19:34:31 GMT -5
Post by amanichen on Sept 16, 2004 19:34:31 GMT -5
Well it sounds like you need to add more salt =) What you put in won't make a dent in the swelling. Consider 1/4 teaspoon per two gallon instead. Add it gradually, as not to shock the fish.
As for the other fish, well I didn't read your original post carefully. Yeah, you're probably messing with the other fish by doing all of this. One of them should be isolated, and if the only thing you have is a 1 gallon tank...rock and a hard place. Given the situation you're probably better off leaving them in the same tank.
As for the Kanacyn -- that seems to be a favorite dropsy med, so maybe you'll see some results with it.
Don't freak out, and just be patient. You won't see an improvement overnight, and from what you say the fish isn't getting any worse, so don't go nuts over trying different things too soon.
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Dropsy
Sept 17, 2004 10:25:33 GMT -5
Post by BeansMom on Sept 17, 2004 10:25:33 GMT -5
Okay - so I'll wait this out. Added the Kanacyn last night. I'm surprised by the Epsom salt dosage, though, as I had already doubled the amount indicated on the illness page for Dropsy. I will add your suggested amount over the next 4 days, unless you think otherwise. Trigger's companion, Adolph, doesn't seem at all bothered by all this messing around. Thanks for all the great advice, and by-the-way, it is too bad Aquatronics is stopping the distribution of their meds. I got enough Kanacyn last night to dose my tank through at least 5 cycles at one tenth the price I was paying for the Mardel products.
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Dropsy
Sept 17, 2004 14:48:48 GMT -5
Post by amanichen on Sept 17, 2004 14:48:48 GMT -5
I'm surprised by the Epsom salt dosage, though, as I had already doubled the amount indicated on the illness page for Dropsy. I will add your suggested amount over the next 4 days, unless you think otherwise. Well, most salt concentrations are made up anyway -- most of them have no experimental basis behind them =) Since this is a gradual step up, it's won't be as bad for the fish. What you want to do anyway is reduce the salt concentration in a couple days anyway. This is only a temporary thing, but keep an eye on him anyway to see if it's affecting him too much. Good =) Yeah...consumer abuse, especially by people who use the medications on thsemelves have set this into motion. I doubt Aquatronics will be the only company to do this, but it was one of the largest, and one of the most ubiquitous. They're going to only deal with commercial customers now. I'm personally getting away from using antibiotics on fish, but at the same time, I will acknowledge that they've been very useful to me in the past.
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Dropsy
Sept 21, 2004 14:49:06 GMT -5
Post by BeansMom on Sept 21, 2004 14:49:06 GMT -5
Okay - day #11 and Trigger is no better. Neither the first round of Kanacyn or the Epsom Salt has helped. I assume I should start some water changes to remove the Epsom Salt now. Would appreciate advice on how much and how often. Poor Trigger is just sitting on the bottom of the tank and his ability to move is very limited (sort of out of control movements like swim bladder), but yesterday he must have gotten himself jammed against the gravel becuase he now has a wound on his side. I'm glad the Kanacyn is in there for that. No food -absolutely none - for 11 days. How long can a goldfish go without food? I wonder who is the most miserable - him or me watching him fade away...
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Dropsy
Sept 21, 2004 22:59:07 GMT -5
Post by amanichen on Sept 21, 2004 22:59:07 GMT -5
Give it till the Kanacyn treatment is over to make any conclusions. As for the salt, well you can leave it at this level, or if you want, do a 25% water change over the next four days. Of course this sort of removes the medication, so you might as well wait till the medication period ends before doing this.
It's obvious that he as an internal infection, and as I said above, internal problems on large fish are handled using injections, or food. It's difficult to get a medicine inside a fish through the water because you need a very high concentration. I won't say give up yet, but given his past problems he might die regardless of what you try.
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Dropsy
Sept 22, 2004 10:23:47 GMT -5
Post by BeansMom on Sept 22, 2004 10:23:47 GMT -5
I decided to leave well enough alone last night, and believe it or not, he is noticably less swollen this morning (which is not to say he isn't still swollen, but it is quite dramatic). I have finished the first round of Kanacyn and am waiting the required 3 days for a second round. One of the most pressing problems is getting him to eat. Day 12 and he hasn't eaten anything. Any suggestions on what might tempt him?
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Dropsy
Sept 22, 2004 10:53:57 GMT -5
Post by abm on Sept 22, 2004 10:53:57 GMT -5
BeansMom, I know nothing about goldfish but yay ! that he's less swollen. Maybe someone knows of some goldfish treats? I know you'd be happy if he ate ANYTHING. Best of luck to you both, ~abm
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Dropsy
Sept 22, 2004 11:35:21 GMT -5
Post by amanichen on Sept 22, 2004 11:35:21 GMT -5
And for a second there I thought he was doomed =)
Most fish (carnivores, and herbivores) have a hard time resisting spirulina wafers, so you may want to try that. And even though goldfish are herbivorous, foods with meat in them might not necessarily be a bad idea.
Of course you'll want to avoid live foods, because of the potential for contamination.
At any rate, keep the salt level more or less constant, and keep up on the Kanacyn. Even though the instructions say to wait three days before starting another treatment, you may want to start the next one earlier given the nature of the problem. A lot can happen in three days, and I'm afraid that the bacteria could rebound in 3 days without any medication present. Whether you do this or not is your call, but in this case I would only wait a day between rounds of medication.
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