How often are your fish sick?

[Minaku]

This thread is really for my peace of mind. I have this impression, whether it's wrong or not I'll find out, that everyone's fishes are always healthy all the time, and I'm the only one who's a bad betta mommy with sick fish. Both my fish have fungus right now, exactly how they got it I do not know, and the other one is bloating. Lovely! Don't you love things that live in water?

My fish are sick roughly once every month, so this is a tiresome cycle. Yours?

[Bettaman]

The only time my fish get sick these days is when they are dying of old age. When I first started with fish I had read up on exactly how to care for them and did everything by the book but they were still getting sick on me because in reality it turned out I was not doing everything by the book. I wasn't matching the water temperature or the pH as exacting as I should have been when doing water changes and introducing new fish and that turned out to be the root of all my problems.

Now, I usee the same thermometer to measure the temperature of the new water and the tank water to make the temp exactly the same. All the fish thermometers in the stores are not very accurate. If you don't believe me go to a store and look at the temp on all the thermometers they have out there. Some will be the same but a lot will be different by as much as 2 to 6 degrees. That's a big difference for tropical fish that are very sensitive to water temperature changes.

The best way to get the ph right is to never fool with it. Just use your tap water conditioned to remove the chlorines (I use stress coat for that). And when introducing your fish to this tap water do it very slowly maybe just 5 to 10% of the water in his container every 45 minutes and no more. That will insure the fish will adapt to the pH level of your tap water slowly as they need to do.

A lot of my problems were when I was chasing the pH by trying to stabilize it at 7.0. My tap water likes to stay at 7.6 and when I get it to 7.0 it does not stay there long even when I use ph 7.0 Lock. So my advice would be to not change the pH of your tap water and just slowly adapt your fish to the new ph level of your tap water. Once I started doing that I never had a sick fish again until it was dying of old age.

Fungus is often caused by too much ammonia or exposure to extreme pH changes and for most tropical fish, any more than a .2 pH change per hour can be extreme.

Are you measuring the ammonia levels in your tank? What size is your tank and your filter? how many fish arein the tank? How often do you change water and how do you do that? You are obviously doing something wrong but without knowing what you are doing I can't help much.

[Minaku]

Both my tanks are heated, non-filtered. One of the heaters broke last week, so I've since moved Boris into a .75 gal. I think he's happier there than in the 2.5 gallon tank.

I have two thermometers, one for each tank. They read about the same, one's slightly higher than the other, but they're consistent. When I bought them I bought the pricier ones because I wanted to see the exact degrees.

Anyway, Neptune lives in a 2.5 gallon... more like a 2.2 or something with the substrate and plants and his hidey. He gets a 50% water change once a week, a full water change every other week, and if he has medication in his tank I'll give him 25-50% changes every three days or so. I keep an eye on the clarity of the water and try to keep the temp as consistent as possible. My apartment has no insulation, so when the heat's off at night the temperatures plummet. I find it amazing that the temp in his tank is 76 in the morning instead of a chilly 40-50 degrees. Boris is using a heating pad right now, and it keeps his tank at 78-80 degrees. My roommate is a tropical creature. Her idea of "room temperature" is 77 degrees (I should just dunk her into Neptune's tank to live) so she blasts the heat when she comes home, then leaves it on. When I get home, the ambient room temperature will have raised tank temperature to 82 or 83, something I'm not happy about. All I want is a steady temperature, dammit. It's gotten better, though. I'm almost successful in training her to turn off the lights and the heat when she's not home.

Usually Neptune's tank is good, and temperatures fluctuate about 4 degrees, which is better than the 8 degrees I was reading before. Funnily enough, now that his tank parameters are better, he's sick. All I have to do is treat him like crap, and he'll perk up and be healthy, I'm sure of it. I mean, how can I take good care of these fish and have them get sick, when my boyfriend's sister leaves her fish in gunky, nasty water and he's healthy as can be?

I never touch pH. My pH registers at 6.8 using a test strip; I'm not interested in moving it unless it's heavily acidic or basic. The strips I have only test for nitrites and nitrates, and they always test in the safe (meaning 0) zone. I'm saving money for the big test kit. My water is hard, but not very alkaline; the buffering is poor.

I have no other fish than these two bettas. I've got five tanks, but only two bettas. Oh yeah, water changes, right. Boris gets a full water change once every three days. I always match temperature, and my pH remains the same no matter what. I've tested water in all stages and it's always 6.8. I keep my tanks clean; I've never had an algae problem. I almost never use nets on my fish; separate cups for each fish is the way to go. I don't share anything unless it's thoroughly rinsed with scalding water first. I actually don't share anything but the net I use to catch food. I use Prime as my water conditioner, and always add aquarium salt. I actually am aware the fungus is a problem, so I add a tiny bit extra to try to keep my fish healthy. I'm convinced that the air in my apartment is heavily loaded with fungi (bad for the asthmatic, which is me) and is somehow influencing the tanks. You see, I've had a mushroom grow out of my bathroom ceiling. Now I'm forever paranoid.

My fish have not been sick other than fungus and fin-chewing. I had some problems with dirty water when I got them back from the fish-sitter's, and I suspect I'm dealing with the true consequences of their stay right now. Other than that, Neptune has always been a healthy fish until now, and Boris... well, he fought off fungus once, he can do it again.

[amanichen]

I didn't have any illnesses in bettas for the last 2.5 years that I kept them (although the deaths caused by the driftwood poisoning are another story )

The only fish disease I've seen recently was some bacteria growing on the mouths of my original four guppies when I bought them last spring (I've since donated back 40+ offspring), and that went away in four days with some Melafix.

I don't use any salt, or any other sort of meds in a "preventative" way -- I just keep up on my maintenance. Avoiding diseases is about establishing a proper environment for your fish (this is mainly for bacterial and fungal issues) as well as ensuring that diseased fish or contaminated water; equipment; and specimens, don't find their way into your tank (this is mainly for parasitic issues.)

I should also mention I inspect fish thoroughly before buying them -- that goes a long way to keeping harmful microbes out of your tank.

[Bettaman]

Sounds to me like you are a very caring fish owner. You are doing all the right things but there are two things I read that can be a problem.

It seems the water temperature could be a problem. You really can regulate the temperature in a bowl that has no water current usually generated by a filter or air bubble stone. The only current in that water is when you or your fish move through it and that is all that will stir that water. I hate these small bowls or anything where you don't have a filter and a heater. If your bowl is sitting on a heater pad and there is no water current then the Temperature at the bottom of the bowl is going to be warmer than the temp at the top especially in the evening when you say the room temp drops to 40 to 50 degress. I'm not sure where your Betta sleeps but most want to sleep at the top where they can take a gulp of fresh air without swimming up for it. It could be that your fish sleeps at the bottom to stay warm but comes up occasionaly to gulp air and he could be traveling through a temperature change of more than 2 degrees. These fill will often get sick when exposed to sudden temperature changes beyond 2 degrees.

Sounds like you don't have a water polution problem at all but I don't like that you do 100% or even 50% percent water changes. The test strips you use can get you in the ball park but they are not accurate enough to measure small changes in pH. I believe itis best to do 20% water changes twice as often as you would do a 100% water change. As your fish is living in his water his waste is slowly lowering the pH of your water because his waste is acidy. Same for any uneaten food. So it's a safe guess that the water in his bowl just before a water change is going to have a lower pH than the new water going in. It may be only a little lower but with a 100% water change that will result in an instant pH change for your fish and he's not going to like that.

Lets say the pH is only changing by .3pH.
With a 100% water change that is an instant .3 pH change.
With a 50% water change that is an instant .15pH change.
With a 20% water change that is only an instant .06 pH change.

The same applies for matching thewater temperature.
Say the water temp of the new water is 4 degrees cooler than the bowl/tank water.
A 100% water change is an instant 4 degrees temp change. Way too much for the fish.
A 50% water change is an instant 2 degrees temp change and that is about all they can tolorate.
A 20% water change is an instant .8 degrees change and they can handlethat easy.

I never recommend a 100% water change unless you are in some kind of critical water situation where the water has turned very foul.

If you do 20% to 25% water changes on a regular basis you should never have the need to do 50% or 100% water changes.

I keep my fish in 10 and 20 gallon tanks and I never do more than a 20% water change and I never remove them from the tanks during the water changes.

I would guess that your problem could be resulting from the big water changes or from the transfering of your fish to a different bowl during the water changes. I'm not an expert but this woud be my guess based on what you are telling me.




That is alot safer than a

[Bettaman]

Sorry but theirwas a major error in my previous message. Where I said, "You really can regulate the temperature in a bowl that has no water current usually generated by a filter or air bubble stone."

I really meant, "You really CAN'T regulate the temperature in a bowl that has no water current usually generated by a filter or air bubble stone."

Sorry for the error.

[amanichen]

Bettaman said:

Lets say the pH is only changing by .3pH.
With a 100% water change that is an instant .3 pH change.
With a 50% water change that is an instant .15pH change.
With a 20% water change that is only an instant .06 pH change.

While you have the right idea behind this, the simple relationship that your numbers suggest, just isn't that simple. It's much more complicated.

You MIGHT come across two samples of water that are 7.0, and 7.3, and when combined in equal amounts come out to 7.15, but that's very rare.

[Bettaman]

This is true but it's close enough to demonstrate why it is much safer to do smaller water changes than larger water changes.

The theory I applied does not consider the KH and GH hardness of the water and that will effect the final pH level as well as other items in the tank that will effect the pH, KH, and GH.

But you can be sure a 20% water change will result in a much less instant temperature and pH change for your fish than a 100% water change.

[Minaku]

Both my fish have hated the filter. Neptune tried to attack his with no luck. Filter 1, Neptune 0. Even bubbles in the water make them upset - they get clampy, and they refuse to look at me.

Boris, the one with the heating pad, seems to like sleeping on the bottom. I've observed him closely the four+ months I've had him, and he just likes to go sleep in his hidey-hole. Neptune, on the other hand, likes to sleep around the surface. Boris has low-level plants and a hidey for his comfort, and Neptune has tall plants that break the surface of the water so he can hide there and sleep.

I highly doubt Boris' water has that high of a temperature gradient. The water is less than five inches deep, and he's an inch-and-a-half fish, sans tail. He doesn't have to work hard at all to get to the surface. Physics is involved, too. Heat will automatically spread itself out. I'm not too worried about temp gradients in my tanks, only temp changes.

I match the water temperature exactly when I make water changes so that there are no temp drops. If Neptune has 80 degree water before a change, I put in 80 degree water. I always feel that the gravel vacuum stresses fish out, so I scoop my fish into a cup and set them on a warm surface to keep the cup temperature the same. As for the water changes, I was doing 25-50% changes every few days until this week for Neptune because he had Melafix in his tank. I changed his water fully on Monday night; three days later he started showing his first signs of fungus. I've since dropped in some JFC. I think he likes it - he swims through the medication, and is frisking in the blue beady things right now. I think he tried to eat it, too.

I do large water changes because my gravel vacuum does not actually get all the stuff in his water. Because I don't have an ammonia tester it's imperative that I keep the tanks as clean as possible, which means I have to take the fish out and rinse out the gravel. Despite the vacuum there are always large chunks of fish poo hidden on the bottom. Marbles are expensive to buy. I've been thinking about using sea glass. Amanichen, maybe you should tell the driftwood poisoning story...

I was also under the impression that so many frequent water changes would stress the fish out. I wanted to do less frequent changes so that they wouldn't get upset every couple of days. Any other opinions on water changes?

The roommate thing and heating in my apartment... well, that's out of my hands.

[amanichen]

Bettaman said:

Sounds like you don't have a water polution problem at all but I don't like that you do 100% or even 50% percent water changes. The test strips you use can get you in the ball park but they are not accurate enough to measure small changes in pH. I believe itis best to do 20% water changes twice as often as you would do a 100% water change. As your fish is living in his water his waste is slowly lowering the pH of your water because his waste is acidy. Same for any uneaten food.

Most uneaten food and fish waste ends up as ammonia (eaten by heterotrophic bacteria), or food for fungi and bacteria. And, they also respire much of the ammonia they produce -- that is most of it comes out of their gills. They are also producing acidic urine.

In a large, established tank, the pH tends to creep downward because the ammonia is dealt with quickly, and doesn't have any time to raise the pH. Thus, through fish urine, and other biological activity (nitrogen cycle) the buffer supply becomes used up, and the pH drops over time.

In a small, uncycled bowl, the pH can initially be high, and then become dangerously low as fish urine and carbon dioxide overcome the effects of ammonia and any buffers are used up.

[Bettaman]

Gravel - I never use it. It is so hard to thoroughly clean the gravel without removing it completely from the tank and is a well established fact that all the waste and uneaten foods that get into the gravel can lead to diseases. So I never use gravel in any of my tanks. And as far as a substate, the glass bottom becomes the substrate for the good ammonia eating bacteria to form on. It just tanks a little longer on glass than on gravel but it works just as well and my Cory cats don't mind it at all.

If you can live without the beauty the gravel adds to the tank get rid of it. It's only a place for polutants to hide and makes tank maintenance 200% harder with it.

[Minaku]

Er... I'm not sure how to hold the plants down without a bit of substrate to weigh them down. I try to keep the amount of gravel to a minimum. Marbles work just as well, but like I said, they are pricey.

[twoluvcats]

I use sand in all my tanks (except my bare bottom snail tank)...doesn't let gunk fall thru it like gravel, but holds down decor very well

[Bettaman]

I use the fake plants with the heavy bottom stands. They stand upright on a bare glass bottom with no problem. They range from $5.00 to $15.00 depending on the size.

[amanichen]

twoluvcats said:

I use sand in all my tanks (except my bare bottom snail tank)...doesn't let gunk fall thru it like gravel, but holds down decor very well

I also use sand in my tank (I only have one ). there are many reasons to use it instead of gravel, and for fish like bettas, it's much less damaging to their fins.

Both gravel and sand have their own uses. Most tropical fish tanks that receive gravel, should really have sand in them. Some people extend their dissatisfaction with gravel to all types of substrates, and stop using them entirely. However, gravel is far from the ideal substrate for most of the fish kept "on" it, and there are better options available. Gravel is not the only choice, and to shun all substrates based on bad experiences with one isn't a good idea.